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What Happens if All Your Camper Outlets Read Hot/neutral

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Topic: Contrary Polarity on Outlets
Posted By: OldGrandad on 04/12/08 02:32pm Since I know only enough most electricity to get the you-know-what shocked out of me, I thought I'd ask the experts. Today, while exercising the generator, I was bored and got out my circuit tester. It's that yellow one with the iv lights on the stop.

Well, much to my surprise, it indicated reverse polarity on every outlet in the motorhome.

The odd matter was that the two electric heaters that I plugged into those outlets worked fine.

Bad tester? Or am I missing someting...considering I thought contrary polarity would pretty much destroy those electric heaters!

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Posted By: 2oldman on 04/12/08 02:38pm Testers don't work well on gens or inverters. Don't sweat it. And no, reverse polarity doesn't make a hoot of deviation.

Remember the old days earlier broad bladed plugs?

Posted Past: vermilye on 04/12/08 03:17pm Although many things piece of work fine with reversed polarity, I wouldn't agree that information technology "doesn't make a hoot of difference." If the polarity is reversed, a mistake between hot (now the neutral or white wire) & ground will not trip a billow since the breaker is non protecting the neutral. Another problem - a few electronic devices congenital during the 50'southward & 60's had the chassis tied to the neutral. Although the manufacturers went to a great deal of trouble to insulate the chassis from the outside world, consumers did a good job of defeating the insulation. End results - shocks to ground from the knobs & switches of appliances. Probably not too much of a trouble now since most of those devices have come & gone, but of some concern. Ane last point - mod devices are ofttimes designed so that the parts that a consumer is most likely to touch are connected to the neutral (grounded) side. Case - a lamp socket. The shell is connected to the neutral & the button at the bottom is the hot. Reversing the polarity makes the beat hot to basis, increasing the chance of a shock if the consumer replaces a lamp with the device plugged in.

Past the mode, the older receptacles had narrow, non wide blades. The wide blade is the grounded conductor or neutral.

As to the circuit tester indicating a problem - information technology but works properly with systems that have the neutral tied to basis (usually at the service entrance). If an RV generator only produces 120V, there is no requirement that the neutral be connected to ground. Some manufacturers practise tie the white wire to ground, others don't. If it is tied to footing, information technology must be untied when connected to shore power since the just place it is legal to tie the identified conductor or neutral to ground is at the campground'southward service entrance.

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Posted By: b_salgado on 04/12/08 03:28pm I tested electrical systems in homes for x years with i of those circuit testers. If you were running off your generator and not off shore ability this is your problem. It is not a reversed polarity. Information technology is an open footing. Is your generator grounded? Is it built into your coach? If so, and so the tires are preventing you from grounding. Accept a wire, necktie it to your grounding lug on the generator, stick the other cease into the ground outside. It should read correctly. Hook to shore ability to make sure your coach wiring is correct.Those testers prevarication when you have an "open" ground.

To the other poster about reverse polarity... yes it does make a huge difference. If it is reversed, yous are essentially running power through you neutral circuit... this is backwards. If the console is bonded (neutral and ground tied together) in the converter, yous are essentially running current through the frame of the rig. This can cause a serious electrocution hazard.

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Posted By: wa8yxm on 04/12/08 03:30pm Normal business firm wires have 3 wires.. HOT, Neutral and Ground

Now, there is a reason you need a footing.. I will try to explicate it

Ability comes into the house, there is a safety ground at the service entrance, At that place is also a ground "elsewhere" on the secondary side (Chief is the loftier tension wires, secondary is the drops to your house, and the neighbor's and the.. Well yous become information technology.)

Now let's assume that something happened. You lot are using, oh, say an electrical drill, and in that location is a hot-wire to case brusque..IF y'all have not tampered with the circular pivot on the plug, then the example is connected to footing, the fuse (or billow) goes and ... Well, information technology may have you a while just y'all effigy it out, toss the drill and buy a new 1 that works.

Now allow'south run that same drill WITHOUT the safety footing

now nosotros get the hot-to-case short... There being no other path to basis... It grounds via you... Been nice knowing y'all. Pardon if I'm not at your funeral but my travel funds are limited just now.

Hence the safe footing.. The "Three Light Tester" has a lite from HOT to Neutral, From HOT to Footing and from Neutral to Footing. Proper the H-Due north and H-G lights lite

When you lot run on the Generator though things are different (normally) there is no safety footing. So in the case of the shorted drill mentioned in a higher place.. THE Electric current CAN NOT Render THROUGH YOUR Body every bit at that place is no ground path back to the generator. (Unless. of course they bail neutral to ground) thus. The "Contrary" light will come on... And then should the "Proper" low-cal, Yous should see all iii lights on a generator

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Posted By: jerryspoolman on 04/12/08 03:28pm My honda does not have polarity, information technology is a floating voltage. AC coming from the power company has the netural at basis potential. I accept never checked the Inverter. The generator has a alert label the Inverter does not.
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Posted By: Pete D on 04/12/08 04:13pm I believe that lack of green ground is why the Honda inverter generators built for the CA market can't be paralleled. Apparently United states codes permit it for small generators merely CA codes don't.
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Posted By: BFL13 on 04/12/08 05:17pm Who could resist checking that out? [emoticon]

So on shore power using the iii light tester, I become "correct" two yellow lights on the shore power outlet and at all outlets in the trailer.

Eliminator 400w inverter clamped to the battery lugs I get all iii lights at the inverter Ac outlets, which is not a choice on the tester's diagram, so information technology must be impossible [emoticon]

Honda 3000 says it has a floating neutral. The tester shows but 1 yellowish light in the middle indicating an "open ground". When shore ability cable is plugged into the gen, all trailer outlets besides indicate this same condition of Open Basis.

There is a grounding method for the Honda using its frame merely I don't bother with that. I work it from the bed of the truck (on tires) to the trailer (on tires) and so far nosotros are still alive.

IMO if the OP has a carmine light indicating reverse polarity in his rig's outlets this is bad news, and the trouble should be corrected.

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Posted Past: Wayne Dohnal on 04/12/08 05:38pm It would be helpful to know two more than things:

(1)Does the outlet tester read correctly when plugged into shore power? and (2) Is this a congenital-in or portable generator.

If the reading is ok on shore power and it's a congenital-in generator, I believe the only respond is that the generator is wired incorrectly to the RV. The electrical devices ordinarily don't care at all if the polarity is reversed. It's a personal safety issue.

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Posted By: CA Traveler on 04/12/08 06:02pm

Wayne Dohnal wrote:

Information technology would exist helpful to know two more than things:

(one)Does the outlet tester read correctly when plugged into shore ability? and (ii) Is this a congenital-in or portable generator.

If the reading is ok on shore power and it's a built-in generator, I believe the just respond is that the generator is wired incorrectly to the RV. The electrical devices normally don't intendance at all if the polarity is reversed. It'southward a personal prophylactic issue.

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Posted Past: wa8yxm on 04/12/08 06:51pm I should have included that "Open footing" is also an option... It may depend (in function) on the size of the rig. I won't go into all the details hither merely what can happen is that enough current to lite the indicator can be coupled to the ground wires IN SOME CASES. Plus at that place are different types of generators
Posted By: MELM on 04/12/08 09:16pm The Coachman Mirada should take an Onan genset, and the neutral is connected to ground in the genset. I am assuming that you are exercising that genset.

The tester should function usually on this installed unit.

In that location is almost zero that won't work ordinarily with reversal of the hot and neutral. vermilye's mail is right.

Post-obit Wayne'due south post...

Exam the tester in several household outlets and come across if it works correctly (some have found incorrectly wired outlets in their homes when they tried out the tester). Check i where y'all can plug in the MH to be certain information technology is wired correctly, then cheque the outlets in the MH.

Permit usa know what you lot find with those tests.

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Posted Past: Retired_nuke_ET on 07/18/08 02:24pm Ok this post seems to have died only I'll resurrect it since I don't encounter a definite answer and I seem to have the exact same outcome.While I'thousand sure things are OK, I'd like someone with a true knowledge of RV electrical to agree or provide guidance.

But completed the PDI and picked up the RV mere hours ago. During the PDI it was hooked to shore power and I tested every outlet with a tester and got ii yellowish/amber indicators (good). Came habitation and plugged into my portable Honda 6500 generator I apply every bit support for the house. Connecter through a homemade twistlock to 30A pigtail. Plug tester in to 5er outlet but to verify beginning time on generator is good and I become Red and Middle Bister lights (Hot and Neutral switched). Disconnect everything and continuity test the pigtail over again, information technology'due south practiced. Fire up the generator and plug the tester into the generator and information technology reads Center Amber only (open footing) hummmmm. Without excavation out the manual and schematic of the generator I seem to recall the neutral and footing are separate and without sitting down and drawing out a simplified circuit to nuke it out, that seems like information technology would be the cause. log in to the forum and practice a search and viola seems similar I'm not the just i.

So this thread didn't seem to come to a decision but correct me if I'm wrong:

Since the generator does not bond ground and neutral together, the handheld circuit tester may non give a correct reading since it assumes the footing and neutral volition be bonded together?

As long as the tester showed correct readings on shore power, the trailer wiring is right? (since shore power does bond GND and NEU)

There is nothing we can or should practise when running on generator power to correct this?

Posted By: b_salgado on 07/18/08 04:56pm Retired,
You answered your ain question. It is not the fact that Neut and ground aren't bonded, Its the fact that the gen is not grounded. If you take a section of wire and claw it to the footing lug on the generator ans stick it in the ground you will encounter the mis wire condition go abroad.
Posted By: Wayne Dohnal on 07/18/08 05:42pm

Quote:

There is nothing we can or should do when running on generator power to correct this?

I'1000 responding with the assumption that the genset is an eu6500is. Equally noted in the "System Ground" section of the Owner'southward Manual, a receptacle tester "will not show the aforementioned basis circuit condition as for a home receptacle." Could you do something to right this? Yeah, you could connect one of the Air conditioning output lines to the generator case ground to create a grounded conductor, commonly called a bonded neutral. Beingness a 120/240 volt genset complicates doing this. Should you lot practice something to correct this? IMO, no. At that place's a valid safety argument either way. I'd personally leave it the style it is. If you want to verify that the basis wire is properly connected, connect the genset to the RV every bit you normally practice, and so utilize a meter to verify that in that location is a very low resistance (a few ohms max) between the genset instance and the RV frame (or a ground connector in i of the outlets). A connection to world ground has nothing whatsoever to exercise with the indication you're seeing.
Posted By: PatJ on 07/18/08 06:40pm

b_salgado wrote:

Retired,
You answered your ain question. Information technology is not the fact that Neut and footing aren't bonded, Its the fact that the gen is not grounded. If y'all take a section of wire and hook it to the ground lug on the generator ans stick it in the ground you lot will see the mis wire condition go abroad.

That little plug-in circuit tester doesn't intendance one bit what the voltage is relative to earth ground and that is not what it is testing. The plug-in tester is simply looking to see if the neutral line is continued to the trailer's electrical ground at some point. The whole mess could be 600 volts above the earth and the piffling tester wouldn't know the difference.

Retired Nuke, your gen and wiring are fine. Your conclusions are right. If you actually wanted to, y'all could tie the neutral and basis together somewhere on the generator side of your transfer switch, but the only thing you lot would proceeds is that your plug in tester would read correctly.

Patrick
Posted By: Retired_nuke_ET on 07/18/08 07:41pm Thanks Bryan, Wayne, Pat!

It's an older ES6500 that carried us through Isabelle without breaking a sweat. The but reason I plugged in the outlet tester while on the generator was strictly to brand sure the pigtail I wired was correct. When the tester said it wasn't right but when I checked it over and information technology everything was continued correct, I figured something foreign was going on. Again thanks guys.

Posted By: b_salgado on 07/xviii/08 08:08pm

PatJ wrote:

b_salgado wrote:

Retired,
You answered your own question. It is non the fact that Neut and ground aren't bonded, Its the fact that the gen is not grounded. If you take a section of wire and claw it to the ground lug on the generator ans stick it in the ground you will see the mis wire condition get away.

That trivial plug-in circuit tester doesn't care i bit what the voltage is relative to earth ground and that is non what it is testing. The plug-in tester is simply looking to see if the neutral line is connected to the trailer's electrical ground at some point. The whole mess could be 600 volts above the earth and the little tester wouldn't know the difference.

Retired Nuke, your gen and wiring are fine. Your conclusions are correct. If you really wanted to, you could necktie the neutral and footing together somewhere on the generator side of your transfer switch, but the just matter you lot would proceeds is that your plug in tester would read correctly.

That'south where your not entirely right. Most gens run with a floating footing. Unless information technology's a sine wave converter, this could result in damage to electronics. Virtually every generator made has a ground lug on it for this purpose. That little plug in tester will sense any combination of circuit fault, including, simply not express to, Open up ground, open neutral, open hot, opposite polarity, hot and ground reversed, neutral and ground reversed, ect. I was a diagnostic troubleshooter for more than than 12 years on habitation and generator circuits. In one case yous learn how to "read" the lights on the tester, you can also tell if you have a loose connectedness or nicked wire but by how bright the lights are. I can practice the aforementioned thing with a stick type tester or a continuity tester. I tin can trace down shorts and other mind boggling electric bug usually in less than xxx mins that would accept the normal person with logical reasoning hours. I did information technology twenty-four hours in and solar day out. That piddling tester will lie to you in a heartbeat also. It will tell you that you take a reverse polarity issue or open neutral(I accept seen information technology both ways) when in fact, you volition only have an open up basis. This is where the stick tester come in. Hither is a quick bank check for yous. Take your generator and plug in your TT. Take your rec tester and get in the TT and plug it in. See what the lights say. Then accept your stick tester and test the rec. Touch the pin on the left (hot) to the pin on the right (neutral) you lot should get a light from your tester. And then take the probe out of the neutral and get to ground. If information technology is "open", you lot volition accept no lite. Now, pace 2.... go and basis your generator like I mentioned to a higher place or yous can tie a footing to the neutral via a jumper wire in the rec. Information technology volition brand the lights read correctly. The two outside lights should light orange. None of the others should be lit. We had a home that really energized the canvass stone walls considering of an open ground. You could get 50V past touching wet painted walls on ii dissimilar circuits... IE: bath wall and hallway walls. It blew everyone's minds until I plugged in my niggling rec tester and I tested the footing. This is your electric lesson for Friday night.[emoticon]
Posted Past: PatJ on 07/18/08 09:48pm

b_salgado wrote:

Here is a quick cheque for yous. Accept your generator and plug in your TT. Take your rec tester and go in the TT and plug it in. Run into what the lights say. Then take your stick tester and examination the rec. Touch the pin on the left (hot) to the pin on the right (neutral) you lot should get a light from your tester. So take the probe out of the neutral and go to ground. If information technology is "open", y'all will have no calorie-free. At present, step 2.... go and ground your generator similar I mentioned above....It will make the lights read correctly.

Then are you telling me that if I have an RV plugged in to a normal portable generator, and I basis the chassis of the portable generator, the test lights will read "correctly" in the RV? When I say "correctly" I mean a ~120v potential difference between the basis prong and the hot prong in my RV's receptacle. Is that what y'all are proverb? Regardless of the fact that no where in this organization would the neutral and basis be bonded?

b_salgado wrote:

Have a wire, tie it to your grounding lug on the generator, stick the other end into the ground exterior. It should read correctly.

Is that what this ways? Where is the complete circuit? How would grounding the generator'southward chassis tie neutral and ground together?

Posted By: PatJ on 07/18/08 10:02pm Please forgive the rough drawing, but you are telling me that in this situation, the stick-blazon test light will illuminate?

This is fifty-fifty giving the benefit of the doubt to the ground prong on the generator actually being tied to the generator'southward chassis, which in the case of my Honda I practice not believe is true.

[image]

Posted By: b_salgado on 07/19/08 02:22pm Y'all got it. The easiest way to tell if your ground is tied to the frame is to take a continuity tester or ohm meter and touch the frame of the gen to the ground pin on the gen rec. If it lights, then it is grounded to the frame. Then you tin discover the footing lug (information technology should be a dark-green terminal with a set screw on it) stick a brusk length of heavy copper ground wire into the ground and so terminate it on the lug. Get-go your gen. and test the rec once again. It should light the way I told you. Hot to neutral and hot to ground. Then, plug in your rig and go inside and do the same thing. It should read correctly. The reading you lot are getting, has nothing to do with the rigs wiring. You accept the correct idea. Now information technology's going to be time to find the basis lug and try it out. My generator does the aforementioned thing. It is non a Honda
Posted Past: ve7prt on 07/xx/08 08:13pm Um, for those of you who think that a portable generator's neutral and ground wires are bonded, think again. They are Not. I take 2 generators, and neither of them have the neutral and ground bonded together. In fact, my older one has a sticker on it stating that the neutral is floating. My new i came with a wiring schematic, and if you follow it, you lot can meet that at no time is the ground wire continued to the neutral. In fact, on this genset, you cannot bail the two - its very design precludes that option. Heck, the 15/20Amp connector is a GFCI outlet! That should tell yous something.

So, pounding in a ground rod and strapping information technology to the generator's chassis basis lug would practise absolutely nothing at all for condom. That is why the GFCI outlet is in that location. It will provide far more protection in this case than a basis stake would.

And as for the tester showing an open Hot->Footing, that is correct on a portable generator. In this case, nothing is wrong with the RV or genset, it is a normal status, so long as the RV tests normal when connected to shorepower. If information technology doesn't, and then you have a problem.

Cheers!
Mike

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Posted By: b_salgado on 07/20/08 08:24pm My generator does non have a GFCI outlet. It does read incorrectly when the tester is plugged in. It does correct when I ground information technology. I don't pound a footing rod in every time I apply it. I simply drive a metal tent stake into the ground and tie a wire to it with a clamp. When I utilize the generator at the house, I utilise the ground rod that is driven into the ground for the service archway. It works smashing. Nosotros were without power for well over two weeks about six years back and I ran virtually the entire house off the gen. I did non have the TT and so, or I would have moved into that. We still had no heat in the business firm (electric oestrus pump) and had to utilize propane heaters. Information technology was a long 2 weeks.

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